stocking help.

Subject: stocking help. Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:59 am

I'm toying with the idea of getting africans but need some stocking help. I have a 55g that I would like to use but it houses my JD, GT and red head. I know that its frowned upon mixing New world with Old world but Im confident with the aggression in my GT and JD. If I do go for africans I'll be removing my red head so that would free up some space.

So what could I keep in that tank?

Just to let everyone know I do alot of research before I buy any new fish so I'm not just running out and buying every fish I like.

Subject: Re: stocking help. Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:51 am

well africans require a very different environment then your jd and gt, i personally would never try to put them together

your gonna have to be more specific on what you would like stocking help with, theres just to many africans, riverline, tangs, malawi, etc, what type of africans do you like??

Subject: Re: stocking help. Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:19 pm

The only Africans I would mix would be Mbuna. As far as the requirements for water go I wouldn't worry about that too much unless you are going to get wild caught species. Tank raised Mbuna species these days are usually raised in a neutral ph with soft to hard water. Your JD and GT will accept a wide range of water 6.0-8.0 ph. They are Omnivores where your Mbuna are Hurbivores...although the Mbuna can accept some meaty foods in their diet.

If I were you I would go for all males in this instance. I would go for the more robust and more aggressive species. Give a look at some species on www.cichlid-forum.com and see what you like and we can help you decide.

_________________
"There he goes - one of God's own prototypes -
a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production.
Too weird to live, and too rare to die".

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

Subject: Re: stocking help. Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:33 pm

Thank you MC.

mahemaheman85 I've been looking at lake Victoria cichlids. I like all of the vibrant reds, oranges and yellows. I love 1nevrkwits flamebacks, I've never seen fish that color unless they have been dyed.

I dont want africans that will get to the size of oscars because I do not have the room for anymore large tanks.

Subject: Re: stocking help. Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:17 pm

Most Africans in general will stay at about six inches or less Mike!

_________________
"There he goes - one of God's own prototypes -
a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production.
Too weird to live, and too rare to die".

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

Subject: Re: stocking help. Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:00 pm

i dont agree MC, why keep them if your not going to keep them right

Subject: Re: stocking help. Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:11 pm

Mike,
If you absolutely had to have africans with your jd and gt (which i strongly appose), i would also agree with mbuna, most mbuna grow to around 6 inches (excluding crabo). Oh and also dont give mbuna any meaty foods if you do end up with some, i dont care what anyone else says, high protein (meat) cause bloat in mbuna, thats a fact.

Subject: Re: stocking help. Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:57 pm

mahemaheman85 wrote:

I dont agree MC, why keep them if your not going to keep them right

What part don't you agree with? That most all Mbuna that are available are tank raised, or that they are omnivores. or what? What is your opinion of keeping them right...keeping them in hard water when they have been raised in neutral hardness and ph for generations,I want to hear your reasoning. I don't recommend keeping Africans and SA/CA Cichlids together but there are a lot of people who have done it successfully. Personally I won't do it because I think it looks stupid to be straight to the point.

mahemaheman85 wrote:

Mike,
If you absolutely had to have africans with your jd and gt (which i strongly appose), i would also agree with mbuna, most mbuna grow to around 6 inches (excluding crabo). Oh and also dont give mbuna any meaty foods if you do end up with some, i dont care what anyone else says, high protein (meat) cause bloat in mbuna, thats a fact.

Now I am confused??? You are now agreeing with me about the Mbuna. Mbuna need protein in their diet even a good staple food will have 30-45% protein so as long as you are feeding correctly you can feed them earthworms, insects, brine shrimp or meal worms on occasion with good results. Bloat is what happens when they are fed incorrectly and high protein, meaty foods are introduced on a regular basis (daily).

Mike, what about smaller South or Central Americans to go with what you already have opposed to Africans.

_________________
"There he goes - one of God's own prototypes -
a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production.
Too weird to live, and too rare to die".

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

Subject: Re: stocking help. Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:23 pm

They dont have to be Africans I can go with smaller CA/SA. I wanted to know if I could put Africans in with the JD and GT, and if I could what were my options. So looks like I'll wait until I have a free tank.

Ok with that said how many Lake Victorian cichlids can comfortably fit in a 55g? Could I put 2 or 3 types of Lake Victorian cichlids in the tank or pick one and have a breeding colony? Again I'm just gatering info for the future.

Subject: Re: stocking help. Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:11 pm

It's not always that the CA and SA cichlids aren't agressive enough, Mike, its just as often that they are enough larger than the mbuna to kill the mbuna. A jag or red devil would have a field day with some of the smaller mbuna, and I'd guess a good-sized dempsey would as well.

Like MC, I generally don't advocate mixing New and Old World species, but it's possible and can be done successfully. Kiokie's tank is a good example. I'd also reccommend some of the larger mbuna. I don't do it myself, 'cuz, well in my mind it's just wrong somehow. Ya may never meet someone more picky about trying to maintain authentic biotope tanks than I am.

That's my preference, but it's not right or wrong.

I've only kept one species of Vicky, and I don't even know for sure what species it was. A male and 3 females when I was in college, and they were given to me as "Haplochromis nigricans", but they weren't Neochromis nigricans. The male got an intense black with red fins. Great fish, very mbuna-like in behavior.

WYite

_________________
One can never have too many fish tanks.

Subject: Re: stocking help. Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:03 am

Yea that sounds like alot of stress for the fish and I dont want to put them through that. It looks like I'd go with a breeding colony Of Lake V's, now all I'll I have to do is choose the fish and wait until I can get a tank for them.

Subject: Re: stocking help. Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:29 am

Mostlycichlids wrote:

As far as the requirements for water go I wouldn't worry about that too much unless you are going to get wild caught species. Tank raised Mbuna species these days are usually raised in a neutral ph with soft to hard water.

i dont beleive this to be true, and this is like saying its ok to do it wrong

Mostlycichlids wrote:

Now I am confused??? You are now agreeing with
me about the Mbuna. Mbuna need protein in their diet even a good staple
food will have 30-45% protein so as long as you are feeding correctly
you can feed them earthworms, insects, brine shrimp or meal worms on
occasion with good results. Bloat is what happens when they are fed
incorrectly and high protein, meaty foods are introduced on a regular
basis (daily).

Its pretty simple, its called partial agreement, if hes gonna keeps africans incorrectly mite as well be some inbred mbuna vs some critically endangered species like most victorians. yes mbuna need protein, but never more then 35% (excluding as fry), and i honestly cannot beleive you actually beleive bloat is caused only by feeding to much protein over a period of time, i know this from experience to be wrong, to much protein at one time will do it to, ive even had cases of victorian females getting bloat over swallowing a brood

Subject: Re: stocking help. Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:42 am

Mike D wrote:

Yea that sounds like alot of stress for the fish and I dont want to put them through that. It looks like I'd go with a breeding colony Of Lake V's, now all I'll I have to do is choose the fish and wait until I can get a tank for them.

vics are definitely worth the time, effort and tank space, and these guys will surprise you at every turn, gl, make sure to let us know what species your looking at, also keep in mind most vic males are extremly aggressive towards each other, ive had cases where i couldnt even keep 2 males in a 55 without one killing the other so be careful to have a low male, high female ratio like for example 2m 7f, the more females the better

Subject: Re: stocking help. Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:41 am

Glad you mentioned that MM. I was thinking of doing 1m 3f but now that you mentioned it could I do 2m 7f in a 55g?

Subject: Re: stocking help. Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:42 pm

mahemaheman85 wrote:

Its pretty simple, its called partial agreement, if hes gonna keeps africans incorrectly mite as well be some inbred mbuna vs some critically endangered species like most victorians. yes mbuna need protein, but never more then 35% (excluding as fry), and i honestly cannot beleive you actually beleive bloat is caused only by feeding to much protein over a period of time, i know this from experience to be wrong, to much protein at one time will do it to, ive even had cases of victorian females getting bloat over swallowing a brood

Most Stalpe pellet and flake food has more that 35% protein.

Example:
NLS Flake w/garlic 47-49%
NLS Thera A 38%
NLS Growth Formula 50%

Hikari Boi Gold+ (Formulated for African Cichlids) 45%
HBH flake frenzy 38%
HBH cichlid attack 40%

I will argue this till blue in the face....Mbuna need protein as do other fish, just not as much. Not sure where you got 35% but high quality pellet or flake will have more than 35% protein. I feed all my mbuna either hikari bio gold+ or NLS Thera A on a regular basis never had a bloat problem ever. I have never had any of my fish with bloat in 10 plus years of fish keeping. The only way they are going to get bloat is one over feed and two feed them incorrectly on a regular basis....most bloat cases are from over feeding. I personally feed my fish except my smaller fish every other day.

_________________
"There he goes - one of God's own prototypes -
a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production.
Too weird to live, and too rare to die".

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas